Interview: Tao Han
Tao Han is an MA student in philosophy at Fu Jen Catholic University and a member of the Radical Wings Party. The following interview was conducted on October 15th, 2017.
Brian Hioe: So the first thing I want to ask is, how did you begin participating in social movements? Regarding what issues? And why did you participate?
Tao Han: The first time I protested on the streets was in Fall 2013. That was when I was in the second half of my freshman year. My first semester was Spring 2012. Anyway, it was the large anti-nuclear march on September 3rd, 2013. That was the first time I protested on the streets. What pushed me was that I originally liked art a great deal, particularly music, most significantly 2pac and Marvin Gaye, as well as many others, but the most important were these two. For example, American music, there is the awareness of protest in a lot of this. In the end, I watched a film called “Girlfriend, Boyfriend.”
There’s a part of that film about protest movements. So I became more and more concerned with what was going on then. Its was starting from farther away, from the arts, films, and that was led to concern about issues facing Taiwan. I’m sure that the anti-nuclear protest was the first protest for a lot of people, because comparatively speaking, it was more apolitical. In the first few years, they really tried to depoliticize this as an issue. They wouldn’t invite party representatives, which was deliberate. All the way until 2014 or 2015, because this was after the Sunflower Movement.
I remember the first time that they invited someone from a political party, they said this clearly, that it was deliberate that they didn’t invite political party representatives. After the large-scale anti-nuclear protest, not too long after, on March 17th, 2013, I participated in Huaguang Community’s demonstration against demolition. This was next to Zhongzheng Temple. It was originally a dormitory for government workers, but because there were issues of chaotic land eviction, some people were forced off.
Photo credit: tenz1225/Flickr/CC
From when Ma Ying-Jeou became mayor onwards, he talked about making it in Taipei’s Roppongi or Taipei’s Wall Street. It changed later on, but it was originally Roppongi. The Taipei City government sued them directly and didn’t want to compensate them. Some people inside had their wages frozen and some people threatened suicide. I sort of can’t remember. I saw this and wondered how it could be so wrong. So I participated in social movements in the beginning because of anger. To correct a wrongdoing. There was a sense of anger, that this was wrong, and I should do something to try and help.
But between the first and second times I protested on the streets, the level of participation varied a great deal. The first time was just a march. The second time was directly confronting the police and construction cranes. Later on, I was in the Philosophy Department in college. That sense of anger decreased, because the sense of being moved didn’t have much use. After Huaguang got demolished, I felt a bit traumatized. Like PTSD.
So I felt that because of studying in the Philosophy department, my sense of hurt decreased. Sort of like being in a relationship. [Laughs] If you keep getting hurt, you put less of yourself into it next time. It was not putting too much of my feelings into thinking about how this country should be or how this society should be. This isn’t a bad thing, but you need to adjust yourself.
During the Sunflower Movement, around then I also participated less ins social movements. But because I followed news from everyone on the Internet. And sometimes I would help out when I had time, such as Guangchang, Gongneng, Hualon, and these cases. Or charging at the Executive Yuan. But I didn’t participate in organizational work, I mostly just helped out on-site and got hit by the police a few times. At the time of the Sunflower Movement, I followed the Black Island Youth Front and the Anti-CSSTA Black Box Front.
Before I went to the Legislative Yuan, on March 17th, there was a rally outside the Legislative Yuan. I went there that night. I didn’t sleep there. There were very few people that night. I thought there might have only been two hundred people or so. There were other friends that told me to meet by the church on Zhongxiao East Road, fearing that police would clear the Legislative Yuan. And when there was no longer any need for that, I went home.
On the morning of March 18th, some big name politicians made their appearance. Wellington Koo, Annette Lu, I forget who else. There was a press conference and some politicians made an appearance. There was the rally that night until 5 or 6 PM. I thought there was quite a lot of people then. I thought there was maybe 500 people then. I don’t like sitting down somewhere.
So I wandered around the area and looked for where the police were and how many people we had. There was probably at least 500, so I was thought, “Fuck! That was probably the largest demonstration I had seen in participating in social movements for a year,” I didn’t realize that it would become even larger
I ate dinner on Qingdao East Road, thinking that it was a regular day. And I got a call from my friend, saying that the Taiwan Rural Front was going to have a meeting at their offices at Zhongxiao South Road. They told me to go. They didn’t explain, just telling me a place, and telling me to go there. I thought, “Fuck! It probably wasn’t anything good.” Since there was already panic that night, seeing as there were people everywhere. There were police on every corner.
My friends were wondering if police might be sitting in cars parked on corners, with undercover police. They said that they heard police say when Chen Wei-Ting walked by on their walkie-talkies, “Chen Wei-Ting just walked by! Repeat! Chen Wei-Ting just walked by!” It was quite panicky. And after I got that phone call, I thought that something big might happen.
When we met, they told me to first turn off my cell phone. Then we went into the Taiwan Rural Front offices. Then they asked us to all put out the SIM cards from our phones. To be careful. We didn’t know if we were being listened in on or whatever. I thought, “Fuck! It’s becoming even and more serious.” They drew a map of the Legislative Yuan on a chalkboard and I thought, “Fuck! What? What about the Legislative Yuan?”
I forget who it was, it was a woman, I didn’t know her then, but she told me that we were going to enter. I remember Lin Fei-Fan was there too and he also didn’t know what the plan was. He said, “Enter the Legislative Yuan? Doesn’t it have a door?” It was a silly question like that. [Laughs] The girl said, “We’re going to break through the door!” And we were like, “Oh, oh, okay, that’s what you mean.”
There were about twenty people there. We divided into five groups. Of course, they said that if anyone didn’t want to participate, if anyone didn’t want to participate, they could back out. They didn’t want to force anyone. I think one or two people did withdraw. Twenty or so people were left, divided into five small groups, with four people or so each in them. I think we charged in around eight? There was a plan that on 7:50 PM, the Alliance of Referendum for Taiwan would cause a distraction on Zhongshan South Road. At 7:55 PM, they would start to charge where the rally was being held by the stage on Jinan Road. And people would push over the gates. And that our group would go down from the Taiwan Rural Front’s offices at 7:50 PM and go sit at where Zhongxiao East Road met Zhongxiao South Road waiting for the time. There was a large billboard by Taipei Main Station which read the time. And we said that at 8:05 PM, everyone would charge towards Qingdao East Road.
We sat there, waiting. We saw other people waiting at the entrance of the road, looking very anxious. Somebody was tying their shoes, staring at the police. And I thought, “Fuck! Why is he spending so long tying his shoelaces?” He was too nervous. That he would be discovered. and at 8:05, we went towards Qingdao East Road. It was quite dark then and we were quite nervous, not knowing what would happen next. The other people in the other groups disappeared then and so we felt more nervous.
When we got to Qingdao East Road, suddenly everyone from the five other groups were there, wherever they had appeared from. And twenty people were suddenly there. And we shouted and charged and climbed over the wall. The wall was pretty easy to climb over. There were just two or three guards there. I wasn’t sure if they were security guards or police. When they found us, one of them shouted at me, “What are you doing?!” But before he had even finished talking, I was already over the wall.
Afterwards, it was breaking through the glass door. I think it was using a oil tank (youyajin, using a very large oil tank to break it down, but I don’t remember using that to break it down. I don’t know how we got in. But when the police reported on it, they showed the pictures. and there was one. When they asked us about it, I said I didn’t know. That I found it on the side of the road. It seems like a junior from Fu Jen University brought it. But he left it inside later. There were two doors, a glass door, and the door to the assembly chambers.
After we forced open the doors to the assembly chambers, I was shocked at how large the assembly chambers were. We were wondering how to occupy it with twenty people. We didn’t know what to do. Some people tried to stack up chairs, but that wasn’t actually very useful. Because they had wheels and we couldn’t really stack them. We ended up blocking it with our bodies.
Later on, seven or eight policemen kept trying to drag us out. I can’t really remember how long it was. I think it was thirty or forty minutes, trying to block the doors. I remember in the process, an older policeman said that his heart wasn’t feeling well. I was taking a break then from blocking the doors, since I had been in front, and so I invited him inside and somehow became responsible for taking care of him, letting him sit down and asking him, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” I heard later that a policeman was later sent to the hospital. I’m not sure if it was him.
Photo credit: Duke Lin/Flickr/CC
Brian Hioe: I heard that a policeman that had an asthma attack.
Tao Han: I’m not sure if it was that one. I remember that not long after, media came. Because I saw that there were all these continuous flashes outside. I shouted, “Taiwan is the country of the Taiwanese!” Because on March 18th, a lot of people were playing Tower of Saviors on their cell phones, and people were saying, “Taiwan’s about to be sold off, and you’re all playing Tower of Saviors on your cell phones.” I also posted something similar on Facebook.
Although I don’t like to be participate in an issue and criticize everyone who isn’t participating in this, I felt quite conflicted then. I shouted other stuff like that. Because I felt that we were going to be sold off. I forget what else I shouted. “Fuck KMT!” was also one of them. 30 or 40 minutes, I saw the situation seemed to be that Lin Fei-Fan had led more people rushing in, but what I saw police and flashing lights from the media. So I couldn’t tell who was outside or how many people there were.
Later on, people all went in. After we went in, it was dark, and a lot of people ran up onto the speaker’s podium to shout slogans. Later on, we found that our voices had been recorded. At 12 seconds in, you can hear me shouting in the MV for “Island’s Sunrise”. [Laughs]
It seemed like the police were going to block off the hallway, although there were people on the second floor, later allowing supplies to come in from the second floor. When I participated most, it was clashing with the police in the beginning, after that I spent a lot of time sleeping. [Laughs] The mood felt very high then. Pressure was very large. But I enjoyed that kind of feeling, of feeling very high, a group of rioters, enjoying that feeling of freedom.
By morning, fried chicken started being delivered inside and it felt quite great. So I picked up this box of fried chicken and handed it to everyone.
Brian Hioe: I was outside then, when we climbed over the fence into the parking lot. I got there around 10 PM or 11 PM. I was there the whole night. [Laughs]
Tao Han: Shen Chingkai was there around 10 or 11 PM.
Brian Hioe: I was there around that time as well, but we didn’t know each other then.
Tao Han: I felt in very high spirits then. I called him then, because I thought he probably would be arriving soon. Because he was teaching that day. I forget. But what I enjoyed most was those first two days. That was before a structure had been set up to maintain the occupation. Everyone was very free. Up until noon of the third day, some strange things suddenly appeared, such as group maintaining order in the occupation site and etc.
Brian Hioe: Did you have any criticisms of the order management group or the central leadership of the Sunflower Movement?
Tao Han: I later heard people saying that the order management group wasn’t called for by the central leadership. I even heard people saying that this was established as an underground activity by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), to create an emergency route in the occupation. From the beginning, I felt that this was a idiotic idea, to think that people wouldn’t move out of the way in case of emergencies.
What was this for? I heard someone say that this was a way for the CCP to divide the movement, because when you mark out a line, its harder for people to interact freely. I don’t know and there’s no way to determine the truth of this, but if so, that means the CCP is quite strong. But even if not, I can see how Taiwanese people would do this on their own. Like the first day, in the middle of the night, around 2 AM, 3 AM, or later, a lot of my classmates from the philosophy department appeared. Ten or so of my friends from the department. I felt very high, that they would all come.
That group, all of them. I climbed a lot of walls to get out to Qingdao East Road to look for them. And I wanted to bring them inside and prepared to climb over the walls. And two people came up to me and stopped me, asking me, “Sir! Do you have a work permit?” And I thought, “Fuck! I’ve been participating in social movements for over a year, I’ve never heard of needing a work permit before! A work permit?! Does an ID count?” I argued with them and told them to get the fuck out and brought my friends inside.
This appeared on the first day. I think that this kind of thing might take place in Taiwan regardless of any underground work or not, because I think that Taiwan is too orderly. There’s this very strong tendency in society towards bureaucratic procedure. I don’t like this set of circumstances. But you come to understand what is freedom through this. There needs to be some kind of routine established after disrupting it, but you can’t establish it right away after disrupting order. Otherwise people will accuse you of wanting to become a new fascist power.
Brian Hioe: Do you have any views regarding 324?
Tao Han: Regarding 324, of course, I was quite angry towards the central decision making group. I also went to the Executive Yuan incident and I got hit by police quite early. I went in around 9 or 10. That was by the back door of the Executive Yuan. People there were still very few. Ten or twenty people. There were a lot of people in the front door, so I went to the back door. So I got attacked by a group of police.
Brian Hioe: I was also at the back door.
Photo credit: Charlie Chang/Flickr/CC
Tao Han: What time?
Brian Hioe: I was one of the people that charged. With the Department of Social Sciences.
Tao Han: I also went with the Department of Social Sciences. What time did we charge again?
Brian Hioe: I think it was actually around 7?
Tao Han: Around 7? We also divided into several teams then. And we had hooks to climb up. Because the plan was originally to charge the Legislative Yuan and so I went with some friends to meet at the Legislative Yuan and then we ended up wandering off [Laughs] When I got there, there as already blankets on the barbed fence, so I climbed over using that. I thought it was too clever to do that. [Laughs] And then after I got in, after one or two minutes, I got attacked by a group of police. Because I was beaten until I was dizzy, I left.
I went home around 1 AM or 2 AM then, not thinking that it would become how it became afterwards. I went to sleep very peacefully. I was very shocked when I woke up the next morning. “Fuck! So many things happened yesterday and I was just sleeping.” I saw the pictures from the day before.
The movement was losing momentum. Things kept happening the same way and it wasn’t able to be transparent. But the Executive Yuan incident brought attention back to the movement. If not for this incident, the movement might have ended earlier. The decision making body divided themselves from this incident. I thought, “Fuck! Aren’t we all comrades?” We bled for the sake of everybody and you would ignore this? I felt this was very dissatisfying, that this decision was made.
Of course, I can’t blame the core decision making body for all of this either. I felt that we weren’t prepared. Without a more experienced group of people than who took charge, would the movement have dispersed right away? It’s hard to say. Because there were some different experiments outside, such as the Untouchables’ Liberation Area, using a collective way to discuss these issues.
But that doesn’t mean that everyone could unite either. I don’t know others’ views, this is my own view, but if I had to call on a group of people to do something, I would have difficulty organizing this myself. Everyone had just begun. So it’s not certain. The movement might have dispersed. So I can’t blame them all myself, either.
Brian Hioe: What about the decision to withdraw from the Legislative Yuan?
Tao Han: That was when I was most angry. When the decision was made to withdraw on the memorial day of Chen Nan-Jung’s self-immolation. I heard everyone discussing to withdraw. You could predict this, seeing as you could feel a loss of momentum, and there was no way for others to lead the movement. I don’t know if they prepared, but the people that did led it. They publicized that they were planning on withdrawing. I couldn’t accept this.
You decided to dissolve this movement? What is this? And the other point is that, this was on Chen Nan-Jung Memorial Day. I felt that Cheng Nan-Jung had fought until death. How could you decide to withdraw on the day commemorating him? That may be most angry I’ve ever felt. I almost felt that I would pass out from anger.
Brian Hioe: Do you think that your participation in Taiwanese social movements has to do with your sense of Taiwanese identification?
Tao Han: I think it had less to do with identification before 318. Maybe it had to do with who I participated in social movements with or social movement circles as a whole. But certainly, after 318, those discussing sovereignty and Taiwanese independence in social movement circles increased after the Sunflower Movement. It may have been coincidental that the Sunflower Movement went up until Cheng Nan-Jung Memorial Day. If not for this day—
Brian Hioe: Taiwanese independence would not have been raised during the movement?
Tao Han: I don’t think it’d be like how it is now. Because of Cheng Nan-Jung Memorial Day, everybody took this up and started talking about it.
Brian Hioe: It was also with the Big Bowel Blossom Forums.
Tao Han: 2014 was the 25th anniversary of Chen Nan-jung’s death. The year before, around March or April, I drew up plans to hold memorial activities for him at Fu Jen. Because he was my senior, he had studied philosophy at Fu Jen for a semester before transferring to NTU. I was planning on holding a small memorial for him on April at Fu Jen, under the Philosophy Department.
I contacted the Nylon Cheng Memorial Foundation then, I remember that they told me that no school had held memorial events for Nylon Cheng on campus before, whether NTU or at Fu Jen. It seemed like mine would be the first.
I asked everyone if they knew who Cheng Nan-Jung was and nobody knew. That year happened to be the 25th year of Nylon Cheng’s death. Everyone was saying, “I am XXXX, I support Taiwanese independence,” like Nylon shouted. That year was also when Cafe Philo began to be held at Fu Jen.
For the second event, on April 9th, we invited Yeh Chu-lan to come. That event was full of people. 120 or 130 people came. It was the largest event that Philosophy Friday at Fu Jen had held. Because Philosophy Fridays usually begin with self-introductions, to see who the listeners are, we spent at least thirty minutes or introductions that day. People kept saying, “I am XXXX, I support Taiwanese independence!” Everyone would say this, then people would clap. We spent so long on self-introductions that day, but everyone felt so high. I think this is quite amazing. That after 25 years, the spirit of Cheng Nan-Jung could suddenly lead everyone to rise up again. Up until now, I still feel quite amazed.
To add a bit more, Wuerkaixi came to the Legislative Yuan on, I believe, 319. I think his speech was pretty good. But people criticized him later, because he said that, “25 years ago, Tiananmen’s spirit has returned to Taiwan!” And although it was a pretty good speech and I was caught up in the mood and didn’t notice, later on, people were criticizing him, “Why Tiananmen? What does this have to do with us? What does this have to do with Cheng Nan-Jung?”
Brian Hioe: What kind of movement do you think the Sunflower Movement was? Because the most amount of people may have opposed the black box and the least amount of people opposed free trade altogether, with opposition to China or the KMT somewhere in between.
Tao Han: My own view is that many people began by opposing the CSSTA. But I think that conflicted feelings about China were still the mainstream view of the movement. The KMT is doing black box activities all the time. Or let’s not say the KMT. The ROC government mechanism is doing black box activities all the time, but this doesn’t lead anyone to pay attention..
That kind of conflicted feeling began from the sense that Taiwan was about to be sold off. I think it was a very strong source of stimulation. People maybe aren’t conscious of this, but I think that this exists among most people. As for opposition to free trade, I didn’t hear too much about this on-site. Or on the Internet.
Brian Hioe: Do you think that there is any political orientation of social movement participants in Taiwan? For example, a number of Taiwanese independence organizations appeared after the Sunflower Movement, all of which refer to themselves as left independence. Why left independence? People tend to refer to themselves as left-wing or center left in social movements.
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Tao Han: Left and right have many aspects. Every country will emphasize different aspects of the left and right sides of the political spectrum. But in Taiwan, I think that these distinctions aren’t yet so clear. If I talk with someone who might know a little bit about politics about left and right, they might be unable to tell me what left or right means in a Taiwanese context.
Is this necessary as a political divide? I’m not sure. Do people understand when we say that we are “left independence”? Or is there a clear definition on what is left-wing shared by social movement organizations and political parties?
I think this is in the process of formation. The feeling people have towards what is “left” is the concept of social justice, without having becoming concrete in terms of policy. I think it is still more abstract on the level of social justice.
Groups that appeared after the Sunflower Movement emphasize this aspect quite strongly. With regards to issues of sovereignty. Such as the Radical Wings Party that I’m a part of. The Radical Wings Party advocates that left and right shouldn’t just be thought together as a set, but that in the Taiwanese context, left-wing means resistance and so its bound up with independence. I don’t have any particular views regarding this though.
Brian Hioe: Three years later, how do you think that the movement has influenced Taiwanese politics? Some people discuss this in terms of the election victory of Tsai Ing-Wen or Ko wen-Je, or the appearance of the Third Force. What are your views?
Tao Han: Of course, those participating in politics has increased in number. This is definite. For example, in 2013, I felt that people were very cold to politics. Such as my friends in the Philosophy Department. They would know what I was doing. But it was hard to imagine that they would appear on the streets one day.
After the Sunflower Movement, I felt that I might encounter these people on the streets again, if something big were to take place. Politics is less taboo as a topic of discussion among young people now. I think this is what is most significant as a form of influence.
As for its political influence, I feel as though the Sunflower Movement is a failed political revolution. But that it counts as a political revolution. I think its because that year, no particularly strong direction emerged. So the DPP, which was going with the flow, was able to redirect this into votes. This is also what has allowed the DPP to become increasingly conservative.
Some people may feel that, “Fuck! This is because of our unclear relation with China.” But this is because these people didn’t have any particularly strong direction in the movement. The DPP could also just feel that this is one portion of the people. And it may not be able to absorb all elements of the DPP, but what it would do is try to find the largest direction people were leaning in and lean towards that to try and co-opt the largest element of the movement, for the most votes.
They may not have grasped this very clearly themselves. So we will also feel that the DPP is very conflicted in terms of its policies, as well as very fundamentally conservative. If we had been clearer discussing Taiwanese independence or China-centric education, the circumstances might not be like this now.
Brian Hioe: How do you think China looks at Taiwan’s current political circumstance?
Tao Han: I think I don’t have any way to discuss this. I don’t discuss Chinese politics very often.
Brian Hioe: What do you think social movement participants are doing now, three years later? You yourself later joined the Radical Wings Party. How did you join, incidentally?
Tao Han: In the beginning, it was because of Shen Ching-Kai. He was a writer for “Beyond Blue and Green.” Afterwards I started to read “Beyond Blue and Green” and gradually began to come to know some of their writers. Such as Shinichi (Chen Yi-chi) or Xiaoxiao (He Cheng-Hui, who writes under the penname Minerva’s Owl). Xiaoxiao is the chair of the Radical Wings Party for Taipei. Later on, I met with Shinichi a few times.
In 2014, I forget what month, probably September or October, a group of friends said that Shinichi wanted to come to Taipei and that we should get together some people to discuss with him. So I was pulled into this. At the end, Shinichi said, “For Taipei matters then, I’ll be counting on you.” And I realized, “What?” And I suddenly became a Taipei member. I was accidentally harvested.
Brian Hioe: You also participated in Neil Peng’s election campaign afterwards.
Tao Han: In the beginning, I knew him because of I helped out with the campaign to amend Article 133 of the Constitution, regarding referendum reform. That was also in 2014. Later on, I joined as a volunteer. I got to know him. My father goes back awhile with him. My father is also an author and they have many things to talk about.
Afterwards, when he was running for mayor, Xiaoxiao was head of his policy committee. Xiaoxiao went to find me to help out. So that year, I helped out as a volunteer, and became responsible for the volunteer group. What was important was working the streets and campaigning.
Brian Hioe: What do you think other people you know are up to?
Tao Han: There are quite a lot of people from social movements helping out in political parties. This is in many different political parties, such as the SDP, the Green Party, and etc. What are people doing? Most people will still make an appearance when they are free. Others have gone into different NGOs.
Brian Hioe: Lastly, what I want to ask is, do you think that there could be a social movement like the Sunflower Movement again in the future? If so, how would it happen? And do you think that the Sunflower Movement can influence international social movements?
Tao Han: Of course, I think that this could happen. The question is when this takes place, realistically, and what causes it. I haven’t thought about what could cause it before. I myself am currently working on the movement for campus democracy. This needs large-scale, nationwide organizing, because our colleges are very undemocratic.
I was president of the student association last year. The purpose for doing this is because Taiwan is still in the process of democratization and I want to do various things to try it out. Participating in the student association is one way. But as president, I found that it’s worse than I imagined. At school meetings, student representatives are usually only 1/10th of who has decision making power. You can’t win if you only have that many votes.
The most shocking thing that I encountered was once when we had a gym class that was proposed to be cut to save money. That day, nine student representatives attended the meeting, and all of us opposed this. But we were outvoted, because sixty votes approved this, from the teachers, different administrators, and etc. Even though all of the student representatives opposed this, it still was forced through. I felt that this was an issue.
Photo credit: 中岑 范姜/Flickr/CC
And its not what just a few student representatives could do either. This is what I’m working on with some people, hoping to encounter more college students, and hope that there could be a nationwide organization that could lead social movements in the future. This is also something which shouldn’t be lacking in democracy, since in a democratic country, the university should not be undemocratic.
Universities lag behind society too much, particularly after the Sunflower Movement. So we have to catch up. It’s slow so far, but it will catch up at some point. Such a large lag can’t last forever. College should be the most free, the most advanced, the most inclusive, and the most experimental. If this doesn’t happen during college, when would this take place? This is very important.
Likewise, if we were to discuss referendum, this would also be a large-scale movement. No matter how this goes, even if different organizations are conflicting with each other, this still must be pushed for. I think these two movements are important.
Brian Hioe: Do you think the Sunflower Movement could influence the international world? Many people discuss Hong Kong, for example.
Tao Han: I’ve thought about this less. Because, for example, I did consider what Taiwan could do for Hong Kong in the past. As far as I know, Hong Kong’s civil society still hopes that Taiwan could help out in some form.
In the past few years, in 2014 and 2015, I’ve heard that some people have come to Taiwan to visit as though they were going on a pilgrimage, and I felt “Fuck!” They were idealizing Taiwan too much. I’ve discussed with some friends before and their response was, the best help that we might have for Hong Kong is securing our own place.